As I walked across the sky walk over the street to the Convention Center in Indianapolis for the Southern Baptist Convention on Tuesday morning, I could not help but notice the bright yellow and green signs on the street corner being held high above the heads of the Westboro ‘Baptist’ picketers. Immediately I felt a nudge of the Holy Spirit telling me to go out and witness to these people. The Westboro group has been in the news in recent days as they picket the funeral processions of dead soldiers.
After breakfast, we went into the Convention for the morning session. After the session, I walked with a fellow pastor out the doors of the Convention Center to get lunch. As I saw the group standing on the opposite corner of the street with their signs informing us that we are all going to Hell, I felt that familiar nudge once again. This time, I submitted to the nudge and headed across the street. Immediately after crossing the busy intersection, I started speaking to this radical group of people. I did not have a formal plan, but I knew that I was being led across the street to these people by the Spirit of God.
As I spoke to the gentleman who was standing on the American Flag while holding two different signs high above his head, I noticed that he had a little boy (most likely his son) who was also standing there beneath this man. The young boy was also holding a sign with a very judgmental message. So, there I was in front of the infamous radical Westboro hate group. The first thing I said was, “I serve a Savior who forgives.” He responded by saying that I serve a false god and that I (along with all of the SBC) am a liar. When I asked him why he accused me of being a liar, he informed me that “You preach a message of love when God really does not love everyone – he hates most people.”
As I stood beside the busy intersection adjacent to the Convention Center, I asked him, “How many people have you seen saved through your preaching?” He responded, “We have seen several people come and join our church.” I said, “Joining your church is different than salvation. Have you seen anyone repent of their sins and turn to God through Jesus Christ as a result of your hate messages?” He responded, “The Bible says that it will be like the days of Noah in the last days, and how many were saved through Noah’s preaching?” I responded, “So, you think that only you and your small group from Westboro will be saved?” I continued, “You don’t believe that God saves people during the last days? What you should consider is that Christ has sent us out to preach the true gospel that saves rather than a hate message. We are not to make ourselves judges over people, but we are to preach the gospel. The true gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins. If we will do that, people will be saved. Paul also informed us that it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save them that believe. Therefore, God did not intend for us to be judges over others, He called us to take His gospel message to the world.”
The man simply disagreed and said, “Jude tells us to snatch ‘some’ from the fire.” He obviously misunderstood the passage in Jude to say that we are to snatch some out of the fire but leave others in the fire to perish. After talking to him about the true gospel for a period of 15 minutes, I ended by saying, “Sir, I just want you to know that I will be praying for you and this little boy. I am going to pray that God will spare this boy from your false message and teaching, but I will also pray that God will open your eyes to the truth.” With a smile on his face, he said, “Your prayers do not reach God. He does not hear you. You pray to a false god.” I responded, “I pray to the one true and living God, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. When I get to my hotel room, I will pray for and ask God to change your heart and open your eyes to the truth of the true Gospel.”
As I walked away, a gentleman who was watching from the crowd followed me up the street. He looked at me and said, “Sir, I want to thank you for doing that. Most people are not willing to speak the truth to these people, but maybe God will use your message to speak to their heart.” He continued, “Sir, do you have children?” I know he must have thought I was being rude, but I was a bit emotional for a moment and I could not respond. So, I shook my head and continued to walk. I was overcome with emotion because of the harshness of their message and the small boy who is caught up in the midst of it all. After a couple of deep breaths, I responded, “Yes sir, I have two children. I have a little girl who is three and a little boy who is two and a half months.” After just a moment, we shook hands and parted ways. We both agreed to pray for Westboro that night.
Why did I witness to Westboro? Was it to stir up a crowd in order to be seen of men? Was it to cause trouble? Was it to debate and argue with confused people? Was it to be interviewed by the newspaper? No! The following reasons sum up why I witnessed to Westboro:
1. I felt the unmistakable nudge of the Spirit of God leading me to witness to these people.
2. I believe that God can save these people just as he saved me several years ago.
3. I saw the little boy holding the sign next to the street corner, so I felt a bit of urgency to tell him the truth.
4. These people are part of the world that we are called to evangelize (Matthew 28:18-20), and it would have been ultra hypocritical to sit in a Convention Center and talk about the Great Commission without fulfilling it less than 400 yards away.
5. We as Christians are to spread the “Good News” which is the Gospel – not a message of hate void of any Gospel. Since these people were not doing that, I felt responsible to share the truth on the street corner.
May God bless His Word! Although none of these people stopped and repented of their sin, they did hear the true Gospel. The gospel saves! I pray that Westboro ‘Baptist’ will repent and turn to Christ Jesus for salvation. May God turn them into a group who preaches the true Gospel rather than a message of hate and confusion.
For the glory of God!
Rev. Josh Buice
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I believe there are different degrees in hell.
“That servant who knows his master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows.” (Lk 12:47-48)
“Woe to you, Korazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you. And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted up to the skies? No, you will go down to the depths. If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you.” (Mt 11:21-24)
However, a person’s sin is not the reason that they are in hell. Their unbelief is the reason they are in hell. Hitler and grandma need the same Jesus to forgive them. Does it really matter? Hell is still hell. Hell is hell because God is not there.
Homosexuals;
All walks of life must be allowed to come into God’s house…In God’s house they have an opportunity to repent of their sins, they have an opportunity to learn who God is and what God expects out of His children…
They have an opportunity to be baptized and have their sins washed away…They have an opportunity to be filled with God’s spirit, the Holy Ghost…
With that said, they must refrain from their perverted ways while in God’s house or I will personally kick them out of the house of God…Any sinner must have the desire to want to change…We as Christians can witness to them and teach them the gospel, just as we were taught…
In God’s church they will hear that their lifestyle is an abomination unto the Lord God Almighty…Homosexuals will know that God is a loving God, a merciful God, a forgiving God, as well as a just God…We as humans must let go of worldly things and grasp on to Godly things…
Jesus Christ is the way, the truth, and the life…There is know other way unto the Father except through the blood of the Lamb…
Humbly;
Johnnie
johnnie,
who hired you to be the church security guard? how much do they pay you for running interference in the sanctuary? i didn’t know we needed bouncers at church! good grief a mighty! that is about hillarious-that you take it upon yourself to “personally” kick anyone out of church!!!
i guess you’d personally kick others out of church too, right?
what about fat gluttons?
what about lying thieves?
what about murderer?
what about cigarette addicts?
what about gossipers?
what about child abusers?
what about wife abusers?
what about ANYONE who doesnt show the fruits of the spirit?
i think Believers who act like the devil are much more deserving to be kicked out of church by YOU than a non-Believer who acts like, well, a non-Believer. the actions of Believers can be much more damaging to the cause of Christ. a homosexual lifestyle is not nearly the only thing that is an abomination to the Lord!
i wonder who will personally kick you out when you are acting unGodly? you have some kind of nerve! wow!!!!!
why oh why are we surprised and offended when non-Christians act like the devil? why oh why are we not appalled and disgusted when Christians act like the devil? take the log out of your own eye.
Johnnie-
Are you an ordained minister? On whose authority have you decided to “personally” kick people out of your church?
all bloviating aside, i, like christine would appreciate hearing a PASTOR’S perspective on that issue.
Christine,
I agree with all of what you said concerning hell. Good references.
Johnnie, Mae, Christine,
I have asked a man to stop attending the church until his behavior changed. He was welcome, until he decided to dress in women’s clothing and attend choir. I had a discussion with him and explained he was welcome to come hear the Gospel, but he had to dress in a manner appropriate for a man. (We dress casual for church. It wasn’t about dress)
He said to me, “When I was born again, Jesus made me a woman.”
I said, “I want you to hear me. You are taking the foundation of Christian message, Regeneration, and twisting it to accomidate something sinful. We can’t allow that in the church.”
He then attended a home group and was approached by the deacons and myself. He was asked not to return to worship until he came to Celebrate Recovery and took action on his behavior.
I found this to be a very difficult sitation. I want to show love and mercy to all people. I also felt we had to honor the Lord. We continue to build a relationship with this man.
But honestly, it’s not as easy as just “kicking them out of the church.” If you are going to ask people to leave, you must make clear how they can attend again. Under what conditions? This should be done by a body within the church (deacons, elders, pastors) not by any one person.
The interest of the church is never to slam judgment in someones face, but only to help them see error that they might repent. Also, we cannot condone openly sinful behavior lest others think it acceptable.
In general, anyone is welcome in church; unless their behavior is inappropriate. Attending is not the same as joining the Body.
David S-
I am so glad to read your previous post! Your church handled things appropriately and, it seems, lovingly. I appreciate the fact that you let him know that he was still welcome and under what conditions. I also appreciate the fact that you explained to him how he could be restored. Very Biblical!
Johnnie-
Don’t you think the way David S handled this particular situation was much better than you being self-appointed bouncer?
thank you, david s.
that really encouraged me.
To whom it may concern:
Regarding discipline – it is necessary to follow the biblical model from Matthew 18:15-20. From a pastor’s perspective – this is never easy. On the three times that I have been involved – the goal has always been (1) repentance of sin and (2) restoration between the individual and God and the individual and the church.
If you follow the Scriptures – it removes the “decision” and “emotion” factor from the whole situation. The Word of God must be followed.
Therefore, it is fine for lost people to attend church to hear the Word of God – I don’t know any preacher who would argue differently. However, the membership of the church is not open to everyone. Only saved people make up the membership of the church. That is what the definition of the Greek term “church” means – “a called out assembly.”
I hope this helps.
Josh Buice
it does help, thank you josh.
i am wondering which sins you will discipline. is it just the “Big” ones like homosexuality? what about a teenaged girl who gets pregnant or a boy who gets a girl pregnant? what about a gossiper or a liar? every church has a problem here or there, so which ones do you “discipline”? all of them? that would keep you busy.
i do not like it when “obvious” sin is shunned much more readily than the sin that we all commit daily that no one else knows about. i think homosexual sin gets our emotions going and it becomes “easy” to get upset and disgusted by it–i was recently in a church service as a visitor and the church was so quiet while the pastor delivered a tremendous message on keeping mind and body pure. there wasn’t an amen or even a “mm-hmm” until he mentioned something about homosexual sin. then the place erupted with amens and hallelujahs galore. i was very surprised at how willing many of them were to “amen” that comment, but not a word when he spoke about living a healthy lifestyle, keeping pure thoughts, etc. not a word, and that was no isolated incident-most churches i dare say might have the same response.
i am wondering, josh, as a young pastor…three times to be involved in church discipline sounds like a lot to me. my pastor, who has been in ministry for nearly 30 years, has only been involved with church discipline three times. is this something you anticipate over the lifetime of your ministry? the only time it ever happened in a church that i was attending at the time, it was handled by church leadership, and then the pastor caringly but leadingly directed us as his flock to stay quiet about it. i thought it was a very caring and much needed admonition.
i think Brother Josh , is attending a youth event , for the rest of the week , and due to location (rural) may not have internet access ?
only mention that so we don’t think he is ‘ignoring’ us !!
if he has the opportunity to answer i am sure he will
we seem to be repeating the SAME arguments here over and over
i wonder , are we , as brothers and sisters in Christ ,
able to discuss His Word, without , argument ?
seriously , can we accomplish this herculean task ?
or, will we sell out to the adage, ‘we just agree to disagree ‘ ?!!
who is with me , to start fresh and IN LOVE , discuss our Lord and Saviour ?
George-
Your pastor Josh is the only one on this blog who has ever said that we would have to agree to disagree. Healthy argument is not wrong. In fact, isn’t that what apologetics is? The Bible tells us to always be ready to give a defense for our faith. Are you uncomfortable with following a clear Biblical command?
I feel that almost everyone on this blog speaks what they see as the truth in love. Though we may disagree on some points, most of us seem to have the right motivation. I am surprised that you would want us to water down the tone of our conversation for the simple fact of appearing more loving. Really surprising, I must say.
I am proud to announce, that as of Independence Day, July 4th 2008, the Westboro Baptist Church will be allied with a staunch new partner in the fight against the corruption of our Family Culture in America.
The financial and media-wise power of the Christian Film and Television Commission (which I founded in 1988) and the notably Internet presence of http://www.movieguide.org, in addition to the KAIROS Marketing Group, are proud to come “on board” with the Reverend Dr. Fred Phelps and his Westboro Baptist Church.
Together, our unified powers will work in tune with God’s Commandments to his Faithful on Earth, and we will redeem a culture bereft of guidance, Media Wisdom, and good old-fashioned Family-Friendly Morals.
Look for updates on http://www.movieguide.org, and feel free to donate money towards this new and everlasting alliance of God’s Will and God’s Glory!
Yours in Christ,
Dr. Ted Baehr
Sir,
How can you celebrate Independence day with a group that protest dead Marines funerals?
By joining with them, you give legitimacy to their cause. How can you call for family values, while joining with a group that brings great harm to the families of those who defend this nation?
I hope you will reconsider your alliance. When you come “on board” with such a group, you add your voice to the deepest hate projected against our men and women in uniform. It saddens me that this is done in the name of Jesus.
David
amen, david s.
i will RUN far from this church and anyone alligned with it. the website movieguide.com seems like a good resource, and in no need of “help” from the rev phelps.
george,
passionate discussion is not argument.
guess i got my answer
i can see why the jewish tradition was for women to keep silent and learn at HOME
george,
are you kidding me? you MUST be joking…you would rather not have women weigh in? seriously? Jesus didn’t feel that way, and you know it. amazing.
george,
while you are sharing the law with your coworkers, do you exclude women? i’m sure you do.
please give me your opinion on the following people from the Bible:
Ruth
Deborah
Esther
Lydia
Leah
Rachel
Mary
Martha
Mary Magdelene
Mary, Mother of Jesus
Tamar
Gomer
Rebecca
Sarah
Hagar
Miriam
lottie moon, annie armstrong, elisabeth elliott and COUNTLESS other women have changed the world.
george,
i know i’m a woman and all, and it’s probably totally out of place for me to speak for you directly, but i’d love to sugest a book called “why not women” by cunningham/hamilton. since you have such a huge library, you might already have it. you should read it. but, maybe i’ll have my husband come on and suggest it..you might listen if the post was written by “john.”
George
You never cease to amaze!
Dr. Beahr
I have to echo David S. on this one.
Ted,
On your Board of Reference, are these your supporters, donators, etc.? If so how many of these 159 listed support your decision?
Darlene
David S.,
I agree wholeheartedly. Let’s pray that God will open their eyes and there hearts to the true gospel.
Darlene
alas, Mae, we agree. I knew the day would come.
Darlene,
But I don’t want to pray for them. I want to be mad at them. . . They have literally cast themselves as our enemies. Jesus did say to pray for them, so I’ll do it. Thank you for the reminder. I really will do this.
Christine, Mae;
The word of God gave me the authority…
Example: Homosexuality, is it or is it not an abomination unto the Lord?
Is not sin, sin?
Does God love or hate all workers of iniquity?
Christine, Mae;
I see by reading your previous comments that neither one of you like authority over your lives…And before you accuse me, “I am not suggesting that I am an authority over either one of you,” I am simply saying that you do not like someone telling you what you need to do in order to insure your salvation,(meaning, your own Pastor or your husbands)…
Don’t charge me for speaking with authority, did not Jesus speak with authority, did not the Apostles speak with authority?
The last time I checked the rapture hasn’t happened yet, therefore I must still be in obedience unto His word…What I say isn’t meant to hurt or to make a person mad, I am fulfilling God’s commandment by preaching the gospel and I realize that not all people will adhere to sound doctrine…
I also do not claim to be anybody, I am human, I bleed like everyone else, I fall, I stumble like everyone else…I also do not claim to know all things about God, that would be ludicrous….
This is also why God put man in authority of the church and not a women…
“Now remember, love thy neighbor as thy love thyself..” It is the word of God, not mine…
Mae;
When a person claims to be filled with God’s spirit,(the Holy Ghost), and continues to lead a sinful life, then he is not glorifying God…And when I say a sinful lifestyle, I mean a continuing sin, “not sin that a person falls into and then repents of, there is a difference in sin and being a sinner…After a person is saved and they continue living a lifestyle of,Smoking, drinking, drugging, then they are defiling the temple of God….
Once a person is saved and filled with the Holy Ghost, the Holy Ghost will lead him away from sin, not towards sin…You cannot serve two masters, you either serve God, or you serve mammon…That is why we are to repent daily because we are not above sinning, that is why Paul said that he dies daily, he knew that he also was not above sinning…
Humbly;
Johnnie
johnnie,
what comment have i made that leads you to think i have problems with authority?
actually, i think you have a problem with authority-you have a rebellious spirit, and you use God’s Word to justify it. you have taken God’s Word and use it as a license to judge others at all times…you are a self-appointed sin policeman, and you don’t care who you offend or who you hurt, and you don’t realize that in the process, you are turning others away from Christ’s love.
while your intentions are good, and your zeal is respectable, your approach seems very rude, immature, and anything but humble.
because i am here, i ask tough questions, i say what i believe and i defend my thoughts, and because i sign a female name, i am rebellious. is that how it is? in Christ there is no male or female, remember that.
david s,
yay, we do agree, very much so. i think i agree with you on quite a few things actually! wonders never cease. :)
I am so appalled and disgusted at the blatant show of male chauvinism on this blog. George and Johnnie, I find it so interesting that because a woman dares to disagree with you on something you decide that I should stay at home and learn and that I must not like authority over me. I’ll have you know that over the last couple of years I have sought God’s will in my life in a number of areas, most importantly learning to submit myself to my husband’s authority.
I cannot believe that this is what this “argument” has come down to. Are you just tired of reading what I have to say? Are you tired of a mere woman challenging your thinking and asking you to think in a different way?
George-
You have 3 children so I am assuming that you are married. How would you feel if someone told you wife to shut her mouth and stay home when all she was trying to do was hone her own thoughts on theology, etc.
Johnnie-
I’m not sure if you’re married, so how would you feel if it was your mom?
I’d tell you that my feelings were truly hurt by your words, but I’m sure that would just be me being an overly emotional female. I’d tell you that Jesus never excluded women from His ministry. Of course, He placed limits on what women can do, but we’ve never been excluded by Jesus, but then I guess I’d just be a rebellious female who has a problem with authority.
To say that I am disturbed by this whole situation would be an understatement. However, God tells us to pray for those who are misinformed, and believe you me, there will be so many prayers lifted up in your two names(George and Johnnie) you won’t be able to help feeling the need to change. Now, whether you decide to be under God’s authority and do so is up to you. I’d hate to think that you would be rebellious against God’s authority.
Ridiculous to say the least.
christine,
i, like you, can’t believe that this conversation ended up here. i had no idea we would be having this talk…i guess i’m just clueless, because this came out of left field for me.
george,
when you are studying the law at work, why don’t you study the fact that Jesus fulfilled it and we’re not under it anymore. if we were, you’d be forced to cover your head before prayer or walking 8 feet…are you circumcised? if not, you, sir, are not under the Jewish tradition. do you observe Passover and a strict Sabbath? do you offer live sacrifices on a regular basis???
thankfully, Jesus freed us from the law that could sometimes be oppressive–why? because His Way is not oppressive. we don’t have to worry about covering our heads in prayer or cutting off a convert’s wing wang…we just come as we are.
johnnie,
i’d be really interested to hear from your daughters/wife…
i am so thankful that spiritual freedom is not something new, and i am so blessed to live in the US of A…where I have the political freedom to share my thoughts and beliefs. i’d be doing many women disservice who fought for women’s rights–they fought hard. and i’d be doing an even bigger disservice to my sisters around the world who can’t share their thoughts and ideas.
Jesus never excluded women from discussion. the only limitations i have read in the Bible are regarding women serving in church. this isn’t church, george and johnnie. this is a public msg board where we can feel free to share. funny you didn’t call out the other females–you don’t have a problem with females sharing, you have a problem with females who disagree with you. that is just backwards and ignorant.
your attitude here is no different than your attitude in the world, so i’m wondering the last time either of you lead a woman to Christ? when’s the last time you witnessed to a woman?
do you both realize that in the Jewish tradition george is so ready to embrace, the lineage and geneology is traced through the woman? do you realize that Jesus’ lineage to david is traced through MARY, RUTH and others??? please do not ignore the value of women, even in the church.
christine,
my feelings were not hurt, i feel bewildered and disgusted.
george: “i can see why the jewish tradition was for women to keep silent and learn at HOME”
I believe Jewish women were pretty outspoken. Want some examples? It was Christian women at Corinth Paul told to go learn at home. Because they were disrupting a worship service. The men set in one group, the women in another. The women would holler out questions in worship, so Paul told them to stop speaking in church but wait until they got home. It was a specific command in a specific situation. And I don’t think it had much to do with jewish women!
Are the women on the blog distrubing your worship, George?