Try to put yourself in the crowd of thousands of college students (18-25) in a packed out arena in downtown Atlanta Georgia. They have come from different states and different backgrounds. Many students saved money and sacrificed greatly just to make it to Georgia for the much anticipated conference. The atmosphere is buzzing with hearts who are ready to worship. The crowd has been led through a series of praise songs and the stage is set for the preaching of God’s Word. Thousands of students are jammed into the arena with a desire to hear a message from God. The lights are dimmed across the arena with much of the lighting directing the attention of everyone’s eyes to the center of the platform. Who will stand and preach the message of God?
That was the scene at the Passion conference in downtown Atlanta at the beginning of the month. However, many people were shocked when Louie Giglio walked out onto the stage and announced the speaker. First of all, he usually does not announce and introduce speakers before they preach, however, he took it upon himself to do that prior to turning over the platform to the next speaker. With everyone waiting and intently listening – they were anxiously anticipating the announcement. Would it be Andy Stanley? Would it be John Piper? Who would it be? Then came the moment where Louie Giglio introduced Beth Moore to come and speak to the people.
As she took the platform, she made it clear that she did not come to lord over the people with her authority. She insisted that she had come to be a servant. After she led the entire arena in prayer, she then stood, instructed her audience to turn in their Bibles to the specific text, and then she began speaking the Word of God. Now, at this point some people became a bit nervous. Why? The question was being asked – should Beth Moore be speaking the Word of God to a mixed group of young adults made up of both male and female? It is that question that should be examined according to God’s Word – rather than the opinion or feelings of man. Below are several points related to this topic that should be examined.
I. Did Beth Moore preach the Word of God or speak? Is there a difference?
What is involved with preaching and teaching the Word of God? To preach or teach the Word of God, there are specific elements that must be in place.
1. Reading of Holy Scripture.
2. Explaining Holy Scripture.
3. Application of Holy Scripture.
That is specifically evident from Nehemiah 8 as Ezra and others read, explained, and applied the Word of God to the people who gathered in front of the Water Gate following the rebuilding of the wall. That is exactly what Timothy was to accomplish in his ministry at Ephesus (2 Timothy 3 & 4).
Regarding Beth Moore, what was her specific goal in her appearance at Passion? Well, it seems clear from what she did – her goal was to speak to the audience a message from God. She accomplished the elements that are necessary in preaching and teaching the Word of God. She read the text, explained the text, and made specific application to the people from the text. In her message, she clearly makes application by statements such as, “You can be a better man and you can be a better woman.” It is clear that her goal was to proclaim a message from God’s Word to the people.
II. Does the Word of God address the issue of women preaching the Word of God?
The Word of God in 1 Timothy 2 clearly forbids women from teaching and exercising authority over men with God’s Word. Following that passage, Paul outlines in chapter 3 the qualifications for pastors and deacons. In both offices of the church, it is clear that God ordained those offices to be occupied by men.
Therefore, from God’s Word, we see that in relation to teaching the Word and the office of the Word (overseer / pastor) God permits and calls for men to accomplish that task. What that looks like in a church body is for men to be the primary pastors and teachers in the church.
However, does that mean that women cannot teach and instruct others? What about a Sunday School class? What about the mission field? Well, we must answer those questions in context and in submission to God’s Word. The Bible does speak of women instructing the younger in Titus 2. That is a much needed function within the church and should be constantly carried out in order to have a healthy church. Regarding the mission field, we are all called to be witnesses of Christ. The woman at the well is a good example of that being accomplished. However, she merely pointed them to Christ rather than trying to be their Bible teacher. And, in Titus 2, the women are to be “keepers at home” instructing and raising the children under the clear teachings of Holy Scripture. So, yes, women are permitted to speak on behalf of God, but they must do so within the clear boundaries setup by God Himself.
III. In 1 Timothy 2, the Word of God restricts women from having authority over men in relation to teaching the Word of God. Does that only involve the functions within the church body or does that flow outward into situations such as Bible conferences like Passion?
Many people have argued that Beth Moore was not in any violation since she was not preaching within a church setting. Those who take this argument appeal to the 1 Timothy 2 passage and claim that Paul was merely setting up boundaries within the local church body. They claim that if Beth Moore wants to preach to men at a conference setting that she is capable and permitted to do so since Paul did not forbid that in his discussion of preaching and teaching the Word in 1 Timothy 2.
However, at this point a couple of questions should be asked:
1. Did Paul have in mind the setting (location) or the function (preaching / teaching) of God’s Word?
2. What exactly does Paul have in mind as he speaks of “authority” in 1 Timothy 2:12?
After a reading of the text, it becomes clear that Paul had in mind the idea of preaching and teaching as a function rather than the specific location of the preaching event. In the days of Paul and Timothy – there wasn’t a need to address the boundaries of Bible conferences with thousands of college aged students. Therefore, when he addresses the issue of women teaching men he was simply addressing the function of teaching and preaching which was typically carried out in a church assembly setting.
However, even if Paul was only addressing the location (the assembly of the local church congregation), those who make a case for women preaching to men must still answer the second question related to authority. How did God design His book to be preached? Did God desire His Bible to be discussed in a postmodern voice or relational dialogue? Absolutely not! God designed and calls men to preach His message with authority. The Bible is an authoritative message from an authoritative God who calls for people to obey! That is the duty of the person who stands with the Word of God. Notice what Paul said to Timothy in 2 Timothy 4:2 – “Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.” Timothy’s duty was to speak for God and call the people to obedience.
Therefore, if a person proclaims the Word of God in any other way than with authority, they are guilty of mishandling it. The Bible itself must be handled with reverence and must be proclaimed with authority. Did Beth Moore accomplish that? It is clear from her message at Passion that she did accomplish that task. She read the text, explained the text, applied the text, and called for action and obedience from the audience. That is preaching with authority. That is what Beth Moore did at Passion. Even though she claimed at the beginning that she was not coming to lord over the audience with authority – she must stand before them with authority so long as she preaches the Word of God. That is where the error arises.
Conclusion:
So, from the clear evidence of God’s Word, it appears that women should not preach and teach the Word of God to men in any setting. The foundation for our beliefs should be the Word of God alone. We should not make our decision based upon feelings, emotions, or a specific woman’s speaking abilities. The issue comes down to what God’s Word has to say about the issue. When God speaks – we must listen and obey.
The position that I hold and have come to hold is not one that degrades women. I personally believe that without faithful women the church would not be able to function as God intended. However, I also believe that anytime we tamper with God’s original design to meet our needs or beliefs, we will reap a troublesome harvest in the days to come. That has certainly happened with God’s design for marriage as many divorce their spouses while ignoring God’s design. It has happened with pregnancy as many people have supported abortion while ignoring God’s design. It is also happening in the pulpit today as many congregations today are calling women to pastor and serve in roles that God designed for men to occupy.
Therefore, I was disappointed when Beth Moore was introduced to preach to hundreds of men at the Passion conference. I think that she can be used greatly to encourage and instruct women. However, according to the Word of God, she should refrain from preaching to men in any setting.
May we embrace views, beliefs, and standards that are derived from God’s Word alone.
Pastor Josh Buice
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43 Responses to “How Should She Preach?”
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Thank you for your faithful witness of God’s truth. Too often, in the name of being tolerant or politically (religiously?) correct, we sweep the truth under the rug. The truth is just what you have said. As a lover of God’s Word who has taught women’s Bible study I find that I have struggled even with the idea of the correctness of my having a blog (The Cross Is All) that is read by both men and women. I believe myself to be within safe boundaries as I do not “speak” yet sometimes I have wondered. I once made the mistake of meeting with a group comprised of both men and women in a friend’s living room and teaching a short study on God’s Word. Thank God He showed me I was wrong. May Beth see the same.
You’re right, Josh, your position is not to degrade women…your position degrades our God and Father, who used Beth Moore in a mighty, mighty way.
I actually read DBG on the day you posted something like you couldn’t believe Lou Giglio just introduced Beth Moore to preach…it’s apparent and saddening that while you were to be listening to a message from God delivered by gasp, a woman, that you pulled our your electronic device of choice and expressed your displeasure and doubt. You never gave her a chance and you never gave God a chance to use her in your life.
I am so saddened by this post…truly….I cannot believe it…really….it’s just shocking.
You probably wouldn’t have listened to the donkey that came and spake on behalf of the Lord either, because it wouldn’t have met your strict rules and guidelines either…
Mae,
How dare you. If you had read the article that my son wrote you would see that he is basing his views and beliefs on God’s word, The Bible. The Bible clearly teaches us that women are not to be preachers. If that makes you mad, Sorry, that comes from God, not from Josh. You need to pray about your post and seek God’s guidance before you reply again. Josh is a TRUE MAN OF GOD and his heart is in the right place. He’s very passionate about God’s Holy Word and if you would Read the Article again you would see that.
I’m shocked and saddened by your comment.
Mae,
By the way, It’s not Josh’s strict rules and guidelines, It’s GOD’S.
Awesome article Pastor Josh, and some excellent points made. If we can overlook the clear teaching of scripture regarding pastors and overseers (how can a woman be the “husband of one wife”?), can the homosexual not dismiss Paul’s teachings and take exception to Romans 1, 1 Cor 6:9, etc?
Beth Moore is in the wrong.
- How many of the twelve were women?
- Did Paul commission women to go out and preach?
- If the roles of men and women are the same, then as a man why can I not carry and deliver a baby? LOL ;-)
- Did Jesus follow “sexist Jewish tradition” because he was afraid of the Pharisees? If so, why did he so often infuriate them on other issues? Any examples of Jesus affirming the notion of a woman as overseer?
If our pride overshadows the command of God we are already in trouble. We must subordinate our thoughts and feelings to God’s Word.
Darlene,
The way you responded to Mae’s post is exactly the reason why most women should keep their mouths shut in church and in every other venue. Venom is never a correct or Godly response, in this case a reaction. I agree with most of this article and sincerely believe that women should be careful in the roles that they take on in or out of the church.
As a short aside, if men would do what the Bible commands them to do, most women would feel no need to step into roles that may be inappropriate for them. Just a thought….interested to see thoughts on this.
Christine,
It’s funny you should imply that I keep my mouth shut and you don’t comment on how Mae attacked Josh’s article and the truth of God’s word? I don’t consider what I said to be Venom and it wasn’t intended to be hurtful in any way. Just a Mother’s response for her Son and a Man of God. Josh is very passionate about the Bible and following God’s word and applies it daily in his life. I would only hope that people would see that through his writings and see what a burden he has for the lost and how he loves serving our Lord.
The article speaks for itself and scripture backs up everything that Josh wrote. I agree with it totally. We all have our own opinions, but they are only opinions, not fact. Fact is that we need to follow the guidelines that God has laid out for us to follow. Women have their roles and men clearly have theirs. If the Men of God aren’t doing their jobs then we need to be praying for them, not taking over for them.
I apologize if I came across to strong in my comment. I wasn’t trying to offend anyone.
Christine,
The first line of Mae’s comment was very hurtful. If you would read it again then you would see as a mother why it upset me. Josh would NEVER downgrade our God and Father.
Sorry if I responded Ungodly.
Yours in Christ.
Darlene,
First, I am trying to rightly divide the Word of God just like anyone else is. I am basing my beliefs on the Word of God, too.
I understand he’s your son, but if you get that offended when someone disagrees with him, well, then I feel for you. I know how it is to want to defend your son, I do the same with mine.
My point was that Josh’s approach to this issue, as it is with many, seems very condescending. Josh totally shut off the possibility that Beth Moore could deliver a Word from our Father. That is sad.
I wonder, does Josh think women shouldn’t sing special music in church? If there’s a women’s conference going on and men are in the room to help with set up and such, are those MEN in the wrong for listening to a woman speak from God’s Word?
A quick study of the text in question can yield completely different thoughts, ideas, theologies and opinions. Like it or not, when we read God’s Word, we can all come up with a different interpretation or application. Yes, there is only ONE true interpretation…..and I for one am on a path to find that…and the fact is that God can use men, women, children, animals and natural disasters to reveal that interpretation.
I’m thankful for the experiences I have been given from ALL OVER THE WORLD that smack my ideologies in the face…and help me see that worship and revelation of God’s Word and Purpose comes from many, many unexpected places…and if I had gone into those situations with the mind set that if THAT person stands up and tells me he/she is going to share something from God, then I’m leaving or I’m shutting them out or I’m going to tweet my opinions to the world instead of listening….LISTENING….
Wow, how different the world could be.
Paul was not an original apostle…I’d put him in the same rank as Dorcas…but I guess no one here would want to listen to ANYTHING she had to say……….
And Darlene, I’d never degrade our Father’s Word, either. And I don’t believe Beth Moore would either.
Josh said:
“The position that I hold and have come to hold is not one that degrades women. ”
I simply responded to that sentence.
Mae,
We are talking about simple guidelines laid out for us to follow, from God’s Holy Word. You may disagree but the scripture speaks for itself as to the roles women should have. No one said that Beth Moore would degrade the Bible, she should just have her place in worship like the Bible teaches.
The statement that Josh wrote; “The position that I have come to hold is not one that degrades women.” It is just that. He doesn’t degrade women or think that he is any better. Continue to read the rest of the paragraph, don’t just take one sentence and form an opinion on it. Josh is very humble and is only trying to make us aware of God’s way, not ours. He is very clear on the fact that women have their roles and “without faithful women in church it wouldn’t function as God intended.” Nothing condescending about that.
If you have scripture to support your beliefs then by all means lets see them, otherwise lets just follow the order that God intended.
Mae -
I am not sure you are thinking this through. Without Paul, the most essential doctrines (!) of the Christian faith are absent! Some of our most precious and basic Christian doctrinal teachings (salvation by grace through faith) were received from God by way of this great man of God, who knew Jesus personally as well. All scripture was inspired by the Holy Spirit! All “God Breathed”.
I am deeply suspicious when the church follows the lead of secular movements, such as Feminism or Women’s Liberation of the 60′s (which I was alive to see personally). I am also deeply suspicious of new revelations pertaining to the ordaining of homosexual men and women in many pulpits today.
But if not Paul, maybe Peter will suffice to affirm a woman’s role in the marriage (metaphor for Christ and His Church), and also a stumbling block to some young women:
1 Peter 3
Wives and Husbands
1Wives, in the same way be submissive to your husbands so that, if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over without words by the behavior of their wives, 2when they see the purity and reverence of your lives. 3Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as braided hair and the wearing of gold jewelry and fine clothes. 4Instead, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God’s sight. 5For this is the way the holy women of the past who put their hope in God used to make themselves beautiful. They were submissive to their own husbands, 6like Sarah, who obeyed Abraham and called him her master. You are her daughters if you do what is right and do not give way to fear.
7Husbands, in the same way be considerate as you live with your wives, and treat them with respect as the weaker partner and as heirs with you of the gracious gift of life, so that nothing will hinder your prayers.
I would also urge you to read Titus 2 as well.
Please submit to God’s Word, to glorify Him and not grieve the Holy Spirit.
Good comment Mark.
Rather than replying to all who have posted, I will simply reveal my method of ministry and study of Scripture:
Sola Scriptura
In other words, my opinions and positions must be firmly based upon God’s Word alone – not feelings, emotions, or other people’s opinions. That may not set well with everyone who reads this blog, but I am most concerned with pleasing my Heavenly Father.
I will say that I am a firm believer that God designed a place for women in the local church that He founded. Without women, the church would not function properly. I will further state that my position regarding women preaching does not degrade women. It exalts them to their proper position within God’s design of the church.
God Bless,
Pastor Josh Buice
Lottie Moon was angered the men of the SBC when word came that she was preaching on the back on an ox cart. Never one to be shy, Moon wrote back and said that if any of the men believed they could do better, they were welcome to come to China and preach in her place.
Josh, If I understand your argument, then the only platform for Biblical preaching is pastoral. Thus the issue of “authority.” I do not believe a woman should be an elder or a pastor — what about women worship leaders? Scripture readings? Sunday School teachers? (I know you said it was okay, but you didn’t explain how that was possible… unless a Sunday School teacher doesn’t teach with “authority.”)
Your argument is really complex. Am i following this correctly:
1. Paul says we are to preach with authority.
2. Paul says women should not have authority over a man.
3. THUS: A woman should not preach.
Or am I misunderstanding your argument?
Also, you seemed to give an opening for Sunday School teachers and other speaking roles in the church. What about “As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says.” 1 Cor. 14:33-34
Respectfully, can you clarify?
Josh,
First, I am upset with you. I can’t believe you came to Atlanta and didn’t look me up. :)
Now, great article! I haven’t seen a complaint that addresses your post biblically. I also read no venom here.
An oddity about Beth Moore speaking at this event is that the men who spoke, as far as I know, would not have her in the pulpit on Sunday. Moore speaking also has nothing to do with men not being available nor doing their jobs, etc. While that could be the case in some instances, I bet one could easily find another speaker.
Thanks brother,
Mark
Sometimes I am deeply saddened that women today, particularly young women, are unable to see what a tremendous blessing they are to the Body of Christ. Jesus deeply loved and cared for the women close to him. Humble and kindhearted men AND women are such a blessing in the Body. What a blessing it is to me to see strong, and also gentle, women of faith tend to their families, raise up a critical generation, and truly make life worth living. Where would be be without the grace and stability God brings to the family by way of a woman of God.
I cannot tell you how much my wife means to me, and how strong and admirable she really is. She submits to me, a broken vessel, out of love for her God, for His glory alone. And she cares for our children like I could never do. Is there any greater blessing, beloved? And yes, when she can, she works outside the home within the framework of Proverbs 31.
And we are commanded, as husbands, to love and honor our wives, as Christ loved the church. The greatest manifestation of that love in me is to honor and lift up my wife as the greatest gift God could ever give me, short of salvation itself. She is unspeakably precious to me.
Glory to God.
I have studied and taught (to women only) Beth Moore Bible studies for the past ten years, been to most of her conferences, and read some of her books. She has stated numerous times she was called to women’s ministry to teach women the Bible. She has also stated she is NOT a preacher and if a man wanted to listen to her studies she wouldn’t stop him, but she was teaching to the women not the men.
If I had not studied her Bible studies as I have, I would understand where Bro. Josh and some of you are coming from in seeing her one time at a mixed event where most of the attendees where KIDS to her anyway. I saw a woman sharing her heart with KIDS who are the same age she was when God called her into the ministry.
Beth Moore is definitely anointed by God. I have seen more women have a passion for Christ and His Word through her Bible studies than I have in my whole 42 years of being raised in a very conservative pastor’s home. I am in no way putting her on a pedestal, she is just a sinner saved by grace, but she is one who has lived a very sinful life and was brave enough to come into the church and say, “This is where I’ve been, has anyone else been there, and do you think like I did there is no hope? Well, there is hope and His name is Jesus and He still loves you with all your junk” (my paraphrase). Being that open to CHURCH people, touched me and all my junk, and saved me from making some of the biggest mistakes I could have made at that time in my life.
I am a member of Bro. Josh’s church, and I have the utmost respect for this man of God who is passionate about the Word and his God who wrote it. Even though we disagree on this one issue, I would not dishonor him in anyway. His heart is in the right place and he is my shepherd. I will listen and pray until this matter is solved, but it is not an issue for Christians to argue and be disunited over. Bro. Josh has never in my presence degraded women nor has he said they have no place in the church. Matter of fact, he just encouraged me to take a job last week (NOT PREACHING).
I agree with Christine, if men would step up to be the men God called them to be, women would be in such awe….we’d have to shut up!!!
It’s All About Him.
Brothers and Sisters in Christ.
I urge you to consider a few points. Please do not take offense, but I am called by God to speak the truth. I understand that this is a blog, and there will be many opinions. Do what you will with my points…I am not your pastor. In fact I am simply a layperson, and sinner saved by grace.
I know of your pastor and church. Josh is a very capable preacher of the Word of God. I consider him a Godly man. In my church, to oppose the pastor on a public forum after identifying myself as a member/regular attender would result in church discipline. Make no mistake, this can be very serious. The individual would be approached with the Word of God opened to Matthew 18:15, and the Bible’s instruction to us followed there. I understand that this may not be your pastor’s approach. But you are weakening your church and your pastor’s ability to preach the Word of God by letting your opinion against him flow into the public square. You may disagree privately, but he has authority over you. You are under the authority given him by God. To publicly oppose him is to sow discord. Proverbs 6:16…a very stern warning.
Please do not be deceived, people come to Jesus Christ by the preaching of the Word. I have no problem with a woman giving a testimony, and with private conversations, even privately witnessing to men. Call it what you want, but if Beth Moore is assuming the role of teacher, to men, with the authority she is given in a public event, she opposes the Word of God. Those who love God submit to His commands. Death to self, alive in Christ.
With regard to stepping up. I once saw a woman use this argument toward getting on a ferry in very horrible weather. The crowd was silent, but she was screaming at the foreman that he was lazy, and stupid, and should make the run. What she did not realize is that these boats sink in weather half as bad. She thought nobody was stepping up. The real case was “fools rush in”. Your ideas may seem right to you, but you do not have the authority to take it on yourself to become a self appointed pastor/teacher to men.
Let’s go to the Word:
2 Samuel 6:1-7 (New American Standard Bible)
2 Samuel 6
Peril in Moving the Ark
1Now David again gathered all the chosen men of Israel, thirty thousand.
2And David arose and went with all the people who were with him to Baale-judah, to bring up from there the ark of God which is called by the Name, the very name of the LORD of hosts who is enthroned above the cherubim.
3They placed the ark of God on a new cart that they might bring it from the house of Abinadab which was on the hill; and Uzzah and Ahio, the sons of Abinadab, were leading the new cart.
4So they brought it with the ark of God from the house of Abinadab, which was on the hill; and Ahio was walking ahead of the ark.
5Meanwhile, David and all the house of Israel were celebrating before the LORD with all kinds of instruments made of fir wood, and with lyres, harps, tambourines, castanets and cymbals.
6But when they came to the threshing floor of Nacon, Uzzah reached out toward the ark of God and took hold of it, for the oxen nearly upset it.
7And the anger of the LORD burned against Uzzah, and God struck him down there for his irreverence; and he died there by the ark of God.
Did Uzzah not “Step up”? What happened to him for assuming the role he ought not have?
I humbly offer for consideration:
1. it is the Bible that is the authority, not the speaker.
2. The Bible is pretty clear that only a man can be an “elder” Bishop, pastor or overseer. 1 tim. 3:1-6 , 1 Tim. 2:12
3. N.T. gift of “prophecy” is usually considered “preaching.”
Acts 2:17 says that our “daughters” will prophecy. and if that is not talking about speaking in public, then it’s more mystical than I’m comfortable with.
also, note “Philip the evangelist, one of the Seven. He had four unmarried daughters who prophesied.” acts 21:8-9 So that’s four female speakers, none of whom were told to be silent.
4. The Bible never directly forbids a woman from preaching the Gospel. That I know of. Or what was Lottie Moon doing? Or the daughters of Philip? why the distinction in the post between missions work and church preaching? All fo us are on the mission field. I do not see the difference.
“authority over a man” is not taling about preaching. it is God’s Word that has authority over us during the message. I do not hold authority over the congregation as I preach (and I am a pretty forceful preacher), but it is God’s Word and Spirit that hold authority. I think 1 Tim 2:11 is speaking of a office where church discipline and correction is dealt with.
We should recongize that there is a difference between “pastoral” preaching and guest speakers. The pastros message is, frankly, different. he is leading the flock as he preaches.
the verse that says a woman shall not have authority over a man also says that women are saved through Child bearing. It’s not a clear verse to build a house of doctrine on. (building on unclear verses is how Mormon’s get Baptism for the dead, 1 Cor. 15:29.
Now, personally, I am not comfortable witha woman preaching. I just can’t make a Biblical case for it.
Respectfully,
David
Michelle, I couldn’t have said it batter! I too have studied Beth Moore and have never seen her as anything but an amazing anointed woman of God speaking what God has given her.
I too am saddened that women in the church today have no idea what their place is. It is very confusing to hear that we have no right to say anything, yet we often feel so close to God and long to share with others what He has shown to us. Men and women alike could benefit if they would just listen.
My main issue with Josh’s position is that it not only causes women to feel like they are less then people, it empowers men to become dictators and the ultimate authority. Neither one of these ideas is Godly. We are all equal at the foot of the cross and that’s just all there is to say.
Christine,
Why are you taking a Biblical view personal? This is a conviction he holds. It’s not a decision to put women down. I didn’t get any kind of degrading of women or dictatorship out of the post.
There is a problem if someone starts out with a view that is oppresive and then seeks out a Bible verse to prove that view. However, Josh’s view is in no way something that should cause women to feel like “less than people.” Nor is it something, I think, he started out with and then sought to prove Biblically. It is a view he holds because of the Bible. Further, he has endured some rpetty tough questioning on it.
I say this with real genuineness, I think you should rethink that post.
I would be terribly saddened if the women who have posted here somehow believe themselves to be less than equal to men. You have no idea how much more I respect a Godly, strong and submissive woman than a man that runs for the podium at every juncture. In fact, the strongest argument toward a woman being obedient in her role as teacher of women, wife, mother, worker at home, Proverbs 31 worker outside the home, etc. is to glorify God! She does not submit out of the “superiority” (not) of men. She submits out of obedience to God. Though we have different roles, we are considered spiritual equals (as fallen human beings) by God. A policeman’s life is no more or less important than the people driving down the interstate, but he has been given the authority to pull them over if necessary. He can direct them, instruct them in an emergency.
In society today I believe we have lost the idea that submission and obedience is the better, stronger, more Godly postion to be in. Jesus remained silent before his accusers. He was obedient to death on a cross. He submitted to the Will of the Father. This was His power. He washed the disciple’s feet. He was a servant, and yet God. Think about it. Did he crush his enemies in an apparent display of power? Could he have? Why death on a shameful cross?
Should we not follow His example?
Question: Why is it so important for Beth Moore to preach to men? I’m afraid I don’t understand the motive.
it’s not important for her to preach to men, mark. it’s important for men to be open to listen to a message from God.
Mae,
The question is a Biblical one… not one of a heart attitude on men’s part. If a man believes women should not preach, that is a position based on Scripture — not a decision to be closed toward the message of God.
Why not deal honestly with the Scriptures at hand, instead of making it personal?
David
it isn’t personal to me, not at all.
it’s very plain to me.
Then why not explain your position from the Scripture?
I saw this quote today and immediately thought of this conversation!
“Never allow the authority of books, institutions, or leaders to replace the authority of knowing Jesus personally and directly” -Brennan Manning
Jesus gives each of us a calling. And Beth Moore is fulfilling the plan Jesus has for her. To tell her she should not have spoken in that venue us putting up a roadblock for the vision He gave her. I’m so thankful for the freedom we have in Christ.
Oh Mae, please be very, very careful. Go first to the Bible for your doctrine (simply a word for teaching…)! Pray for God’s guidance and search scripture very carefully, with all honesty, putting aside all human pride. If a man (woman) contradicts scripture directly, reject his (her) view on the subject he (she) is addressing. Set aside your emotion and search for truth. Pray for discernment.
This man (Manning) has an army of Godly orthodox Christian/Theological critics and for good reason. He promotes clear and direct heresy at virtually every major juncture (even by “more liberal” leaning denominations). His personal life has also been a mess…a very poor witness. I do not want to, or need to, post evidence as the internet is teeming with clear and Biblical exposition on the subject. Realize that Catholicism and the Protestant faith are mutually exclusive! You cannot be saved by “Grace alone” and also “Works + Grace”. It is impossible, only one or the other. Universalism is also a very, very serious error!
Let me give you one quote which should serve to convince any regenerate person of the deep error of this man:
Manning says, “God is a kooky God who can scarcely bear to be without us” (The Ragamuffin Gospel, p. 165).
I LOVE THE RAGAMUFFIN GOSPEL!
First, I know what DOCTRINE means. Secondly, don’t assume that I’m just quoting him without knowing what I’m saying or who I’m quoting! And third, don’t assume I’m looking at this emotionally!
My personal life has been a mess, too! Thankfully, Jesus loves me beyond all of that! I wish humans were as forgiving. Thank the Lord we only have to have His forgiveness!
Mae,
It is dangerous to claim the authority of “knowing Jesus” to superscede that of Scripture.
You cited: “Never allow the authority of books, institutions, or leaders to replace the authority of knowing Jesus personally and directly” -Brennan Manning
I am simply submitting that THE BOOK should indeed replace the authority of knowing Jesus “personally and directly.”
Look, I suspect you and I hold similiar views. But those views must be discussed in light of the Bible. Otherwise, I can simply claim a direct revelation from my walk with Jesus, and you can claim a direct revelation from your walk.
On Jan 25 I posed four questions, based on Scripture. They are yet unresponded to. Why not keep this centered on the Bible?
I took it as Manning referring to books that have been written by men–study guides, etc.
The Book is the Only Source to look to, I agree whole heartedly with you on that.
I think these “direct revelations” you are speaking of could also be called “personal convictions.”
Mae,
I’m just saying: The discussion from our end is best held down by the Bible.
I think there are times when it may be appropriate for a woman to preach/teach. I should make that case from the Bible, not my “persnal convictions.” if my convictions don’t line up with Scripture, then my convictions must change.
1 Cor 14:34-35
If we take a look at this verse, then women shouldn’t sing or praise God verbally at church???
No, because if you look at v 4 and 5 of 1 Cor 11, you will see that women were prophesying, in church!
AND, covering the head was to be the SIGN OF AUTHORITY!
1 Timothy 2–
Greek words for man in this verse are also used for woman…I think it’s pretty clear that Paul is talking about the marriage relationship in the verses that so many use to justify their personal opinions about women preaching.
Please tell me your thoughts on Priscilla, in Acts 18.
Phoebe was a deacon—church leadership! Did she keep silent? Did she have no authority?
There are several other places in scripture that speak of females who prophesied and shared the gospel. Have they no authority?
We are told in Acts that we will prophesy-sons and daughters!
And even if we buy into Josh’s feelings that prophesy is dead, were the early daughters who DID prophecy wrong for doing so?
I love the thought that I heard in a sermon years ago—women were the FIRST to proclaim that Jesus had risen!! The first Gospel bearers were women!!
Listen, I think that women preaching is a totally different subject than women pastoring. But I have heard many women lay it out in Scripture in a way that is so moving and obviously from God. How can a mere human judge and say she has no authority? Especially when the Bible has given us so many examples of Godly women who have the courage, boldness and faith to proclaim what God has put on their hearts?
How amazing is it that I, a woman, have Esther as an example? Protocol and rules would have kept her from speaking to the King, her authority. However, she knew it was God who was telling her to speak, and so she did so, boldly, bravely, knowing the earthly consequences…but she also knew the God she served was bigger than man’s rules. And her actions alone saved an entire nation of people.
I think this entire issue is one based on emotion–most men don’t WANT to listen to a woman, and would never submit to one! But I also think that this issue is the perfect place for satan to be glorified. I mean, I bet he’s thrilled when men sit in conferences and meetings and churches and immediately dismiss the speaker because of gender.
Question: would a female missionary be rebelling against God’s purpose for her as a woman by sharing His Word with males?
Truly, when you tell me that God CAN’T or WON’T use me in a specific role, then you are limiting Him. Don’t limit my God. He is only limited by His own Kindness and by the Promises He has made. I am thankful that My God and My Savior CAN use me for anything. And the only choice I have is to respond with “Here I am, Send me.” (Isaiah 6:8) I can’t control what my male counterparts might think of me!
Mae – I’d like to make a suggestion. Go to your church and ask the pastor for a good, solid Bible commentary, one that is well respected and authoritative. Pour over the work so many good Theologians and Bible scholars have done for centuries of years. Watch as they wrestle with issues of exegesis and doctrinal interperetation of scripture. 1 Timothy is universally understood as instructive by way of Paul to Timothy in the context of instructions pertaining to leadership, false teachers, and the church’s responsibilities, written to assist Timothy in overseeing the Ephesian church and perhaps others in Asia. The clear context of the letter is instruction in the area of church leadership. Never really seen ANY evidence otherwise. Where do you get marriage from? Huh? I’m confused… do you mean Ephesians?
Another caution, prophesy and leadership/authority in the church are completely different issues! Nothing at all wrong with a woman preaching the Gospel, missionary work, speaking of the love of God. The issue is authority in the church.
Perhaps you could find an older woman in your congregation to help lead and disciple you. You seem a bit angry to me. Strive to be submissive to the Word of God and the Cross. Too many “me’s” in the last paragraph….focus on God. God did not change his mind in the 60′s with Women’s Liberation, it was the world that turned it’s back on God. If our roles are the same, can I have a baby? Why not? Not fair, right?
Also – are you struggling with a sin? Bring it to a friend, the pastor, the elders. Make you heart gentle and accepting of God’s Word. Be humble, for the sake of the Cross of Christ.
Mark-
I am sure that you didn’t mean for your last post to come across nearly as condescending and arrogant as it did. I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt on this one. I have a caution for you though…it is very dangerous ground to start making insinuations that someone is angry because they are struggling with a sin. Again, I am giving you the benefit of the doubt, so I will leave it as a caution instead of taking it further.
I think that Mae, like many women in the church are struggling with this issue. I struggle with it myself. My alk with the Saviour is closer than it has ever been. God is showing me things about myself and others that I have never understood before. I long to share what God has shown me with others because I believe they could truly benefit. However, I feel stymied by the fact that I am a female and have been taught most of my life that I am to be silent on doctrinal and Biblical matters. For this reason, I have kept silent and decided to keep these thoughts in a journal for my son one day. However, I am beginning to feel the nudge to share these things. My confidence is very low because of beliefs such as the ones that have been shared on this blog.
I know my Shepherd’s voice just like any other believer, male or female. I am convinced that I am being led by Him in this matter. So, who do I listen to? God Himself or traditional church beliefs? Most of the people on this blo would say that it would be a sin for me to teach a mixed group of people what God is teaching me, but I think it’s a sin to ignore the voice of God….this is the dilemma of many women in the church today.
I’m sorry ladies, but I don’t see the Lord in this, only anger.
I will take my leave… for God’s Glory. I will see you one day in glory. Until then, God’s peace and love be with each one of you.
David,
I have been following this blog subject with great interest. VERY INTERESTING!!! I make a request of you specifically. Would you evaluate from scripture in depth this subject for all the women who struggle with these issues. These women, I’m guessing, have many of the same spiritual desires (gifts) as men; however, there is a line that women should not cross over. That line is the problem — it is blurry! If women had a clear understanding of that line and obedience in their heart, they would probably willingly not cross over it.
Gina,
Thank you for the opportunity.
1. Prophets. Most see that gift as a gift of “preaching” or speaking. not of future telling.
Acts 2:17 says that our “daughters” will prophecy.
Acts 21:8-9: “Philip the evangelist, one of the Seven. He had four unmarried daughters who prophesied.”
So that’s four female speakers, none of whom were told to be silent.
2. A weaker case can be made for the Sam. Woman who told the entire town.
3. There are two verses that command women to remain silent:
FRIST:
“As in all the congregations of the saints, 34 women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. 35 If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.” 1 Cor. 14:33-34
Paul is here addressing a specific problem. Not women teaching, but women shouting out during the service. Note his appeal to the “law.”
In “Commentary on the New Testament Use Of The Old Testament” G.K. Beale notes: “Paul cannot mean that women are not allowed to speak at all, since in chapter 11 he discusses their authority to pray and prophesy in worship service. He probably means either that women should not participate in the judging/evaluation of the prophetic messages of others or perhaps particularly the message spoken by their own husbands?, or that they must refrainf rom disruptive chatter or inappropriate conversations (my view), perhaps especially with toher men.”
Interesting, no where does “the law” command a woman to be silent. Beale suggests perhaps the creation narrative or Gen. 3:16.
SECOND:
“A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent . 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15 But women will be saved through childbearing — if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.” 1 Tim. 2:11-15
New American Commentary takes the view I was taught at CBU. That there was probably a problem in the early church of women shouting out during the message, so Paul commands them to be silent during the teaching.
“Paul specified two features about a woman’s attitude in learning. First, she was to learn in quietness. The word hesychia emphasized the attitude or spirit with which the woman was to learn and prophibited her dashing about as a busybody. Pual was not demanding physical silence but a teachable spirit. Second she was to learn in full submission. Paul was not specifying to whom the submission was due, but it atlead included the leaders of the congregation, who were responsible for giving instruction in doctrine. The submission did not demand a surrender of the mind or conscience or the abandonment of the duty of private judgment. It was a warninga gainst abusing the leadership of the congregation by disrespectful, boisterous actions.” (p.98)
All that to say: Paul is responding to a specific problem in the church.
4. Freedom in Christ.
the N.T. often has to deal with roles in the early church, sincethe Gospel did the unusual work of making all people equal. That rubbed against the social workings of their day. “You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.” Gal. 3:26-29
How were slaves to act if they were now free in Christ? or how were women to act if they were now equal to husbands? the N.T. (1 Peter as well as Paul) gives great attention to the importance of those roles not challenging the social structure and thus dishonoring the Gospel. So the Bible gives limits to how we are to use our freedom — not because it is an offense to God, but because it might hinder our culture.
See 1 Peter 2:12-3:6 We are to submit:
–To the government.
–Slaves to masters.
–Wives to husbands.
WHY?: “so that, if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over without words by the behavior of their wives” 1 Peter 3:1
I do not like the cultural argument often made to dismiss difficult verses. In this case, it does appear that Paul is dealing witha specific cultural problem. Women, free in Christ, are speaking out in the church. thus he commands them to be silent.
5. Where that puts us:
The Bible is pretty clear that only a man can be an “elder” Bishop, pastor or overseer. (1 tim. 3:1-6 , 1 Tim. 2:12 ) However, beyond that there seems to be great freedom givine to women, so long as their freedom is practiced in submission to right authority. (ie: Church structure, in this case)
I have had women give testimonies in church. teach Sunday School. teach Bible studies and home groups. At a community gathering, a woman gave one of several addresses from our pulpit. Southern Baptist in particular have a history of allowing women to speak — thus Lottie Moon and others.
Notice, though: we are not talking about “pastoral” preaching. that is, I think what Josh has in mind when he talks about preaching with “authority.”
1. It appears the early church did allow women to speak. (They had women prophets)
2. Women were commanded not to interupt.
3. They did not allow women to be pastors. Thus, women: Did not hold the regular position as the teaching elder in a church.
I hope that is helpful.
Blessings!
David
David,
Thank you for taking your time to address my concerns. There is much there to be prayfully studied upon and quite helpful!
Mark,
I am going to refrain from telling you what I think of your post to me. 1, because you wouldn’t listen anyway, and 2, because I’m not here to prove ANYTHING to YOU. I will say that you make me laugh–not because you’re funny, but because your assumptions, your attitude and your ideology is so absurd.
There’s a wonderful book called “Why Not Women” that I read in college in a Women in Missions class. This book changed my life. A few points it made are this:
1. Satan knows his time is limited. How convenient for him to dleay the compeltion of the Great Commission by cutting the number of workers in the fields. (Fredrik Franson said, “When two thirds of the Christians are excluded from work of evangelizing, the loss for God’s cause is so great that it can hardly be described.”
2. Satan speaks to male pride by convincing them that women are not their equal. Aristotle, Plato and other philosophers spread the idea that women were inferior and even subhuman. Pride is really a sin that allows you to refuse who you really are. Go into any church across the world and almost always you will find more women. Male pride destroys his intimacy with our Savior–and it also stunts growth of ministry and ultimately the Kingdom of God.
3. Bias against women in church sends a message that God is unjust. An example? Florence Nightingale. She wanted to be a missionary so badly! She once said, “I would have given [the church] my head, my hand, my heart. She would not have them.” Unbelievers see this and conclude that God can’t be fair and just, because His followers aren’t. JUSTICE, LIKE JUDGMENT, MUST BEGIN IN THE HOUSE OF GOD. The issue of freedom and justice, however, will be decided even if the earthly church body doesn’t jump on it.
4. Male and female together are created in God’s image. FEAR of Feminism leads to many men and woemn alike to reject and refuse women preachers. Another quote is from David Johnson, “All my life I heard that [the acceptance of] women preachers was a spineless accomodation to feminism. However, the elimination of women from ministry is actually a sinful accomodation to a culture that isn’t all that different from the male-dominated Jewish culture Jesus came to blow up. It’s not that feminism is affecting the church–it’s the church which has allowed culture to rob it of Christ’s redeeming work for women.”
MANY heroes of the Moravian missionary movement were women.
The Great Awakening was led by Edwards and Wesley–John Wesley’s mother preached every single week in her husband’s parish. She taught her children every day. And then Wesley himself used women leaders for classes and said “Since God uses women in the conversion of sinners, who am I that I should withstand God?”
God used Charles Finney to spread revival in America–he founded Oberlin college which allowed blacks and women to study in the same classrooms as white men and one of his students became the first woman ordained in America.
Dwight Moody was eager to have women preach and his Institute offered preaching classes to women up until nearly the 1930s.
There are NEVER new truths in the Word of God. When we know Who God is, we can THEN apply His Word. God will never be untruthful or misleading. His Character can never be contradicted by a Scripture verse.
IF Paul was stating an absolute truth in 1 Cor 14:34, then he was contradicting Joel–where we are told that Sons and Daughters will prophesy. If this is an absolute truth–that women should keep silent, then Paul is even contradicting himself where THREE CHAPTERS EARLIER he told women to pray and prophesy.
God’s Absolute Truth re. gender is one of equality. It is modeled for us in the Trinity–there is no hierarchy here and there won’t be one in heaven, either!
When you say women can’t be used in public ministry, you are actually saying that there are some God-given gifts that women are not allowed to use….How can you read Ephesians 4 and then seperate the categories into male and female?? ONE BODY is what we are a part of!
Our Bible and world history gives us countless examples of how God uses women. It is shameful, sinful, and degrading–to women, to The Church, and to Our Savior–to tell a believer what She cannot do. Because we are called to listen to God, not man.
I am so thankful for Beth Moore and others who simply live the lives they were called to live. And I am hopeful for a time when women’s words and gifts are valued in the Body of Christ.
One more excerpt from the book “Why Not Women”
Dorothy Sayers said:
Perhaps it is no wonder that the women were first at the Cradle and last at the Cross. They had never known a man like this Man–there has never been such another. A prophet and teacher who never nagged at them, never flattered or coaxed or patronized; who never made arch jokes about them, never treated them as “the women, God help us!” or “the ladies, God bless them!”; who rebuked without querulousness and praised without condescension; who took their questions and arguments seriously; who never mapped out their sphere for them, never urged them to be feminine or jeered at them for being female; who had no axe to grind and no uneasy male dignity to defend; who took them as he found them and was completely unselfconscious. THere is no act, no sermon, no parable in the whole Gospel that borrows its pungency from female perversity; nobody could possibly guess from the words and deeds of Jesus that there was anything “funny” about woman’s nature.”
He had no double standard, no exclusions, and no limits on their God given destiny.
a quick question: Who is Mark? (Seriously, who are you?)